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0:00 Escucha el podcast de Negras. 0:02 Este programa se emite los viernes a las 3 de la tarde 0:05 por Radio Universidad de Puerto Rico en el 89.7 FM San Juan 0:10 y el 88.3 FM Mayagüez. 0:14 Todo un mundo de música e información. 0:17 Cadena Radio Universidad de Puerto Rico presenta Negras. 0:22 Producido por Colectivo Ilé, 0:24 un espacio para visibilizar proyectos antirracistas 0:28 y educar de forma crítica e informada sobre la negritud y la racialización. 0:35 Las expresiones que comparten nuestras invitadas no representan necesariamente la opinión de negras ni de Colectivo Ilé. 0:46 Hoy en Negras les saluda Bárbara Abadía Rezach. 0:50 Continuamos celebrando los cinco años de Negras. 0:52 En esta celebración, no solo hemos incluido una radionovela, también la serie sobre Haití, 0:58 tomando el pulso a 220 años de la revolución haitiana. 1:03 En esta quinta parte de la serie, nos acompaña la artista, autora y educadora feminista haitiana, Gina Yulisi. 1:11 Hi, Gina. How are you? 1:13 Hello, Barbara. How are you? 1:15 I'm good. I'm glad to have you in Negras. 1:18 Y me olvidó que te agregué que tú eres también un antropólogo, 1:22 espectador, performante, poet, singer, photographer. 1:27 Y me ha hecho muchos roles que tú has estado playing. 1:33 Gracias. 1:34 Bueno, yo creo que es como muchos de nosotros que tenemos en el que se ha en el que se ha. 1:38 ¿Vale? 1:38 Todo todo se hagan. 1:40 Exacto. 1:41 Tenemos diferentes sombreros, diferentes hats. 1:45 Sí, diferentes hats. 1:45 I goto eso. 1:46 Sí. 1:46 Gina, we want to start talking about Haiti 1:50 But from your personal perspective 1:52 ¿Nos cuentas donde naciste? 1:55 ¿Donde te criaste? 1:57 Well, I was born in Petronville 2:01 A little bit outside of the capital 2:05 I lived most of my life 2:07 Those younger years I was in Haiti 2:11 And then we migrated when I was like 11 or 12 2:15 y me migraria a la costa 2:17 en New York por un poco 2:19 y luego de New Jersey 2:21 y más o menos 2:23 he estado en los Estados Unidos 2:25 como un adulto 2:26 por mi vida 2:27 aunque 2:28 la vida 2:30 took me back a la caribe 2:32 ¿Qué memories 2:35 tienes que tener en Haiti 2:36 como un niño 2:38 es muy divertido 2:40 y muy divertido 2:42 he escrito un poco sobre esto 2:44 A lot of my memories are of food. 2:51 The women in my family have worked in the food industry in so many different capacities. 2:59 There are people who are caterers. 3:03 There are people who used to sell things as street vendors. 3:12 My grandmother was a street vendor, actually. 3:14 One of my aunts 3:18 Had a coffee business 3:20 Great aunts 3:21 Another one was like a big 3:24 Time pastry chef 3:26 In a hotel 3:27 So it's like this real interesting 3:30 You know 3:32 As we know in the Caribbean how 3:34 Funky class can be within one family 3:36 Right where you have 3:38 You know within the same family 3:40 Tree someone who's a street vendor 3:42 And someone who's like a pastry chef 3:44 en un hotel y estos eran todos los siblings 3:47 así 3:49 que es un modo para mi 3:52 que yo creía que yo creía 3:53 que yo creía 3:55 que yo me amo 3:56 y pastries 3:58 que yo no me gusta 3:59 pero que yo me aprecio 4:02 y así 4:03 mi memories de Haití 4:06 tend a ser 4:08 muy laced 4:11 con 4:11 food in some way 4:13 I think the other thing 4:16 that's pretty big in my 4:18 memory that I 4:20 appreciate and all of this of course 4:22 finds its way in the work that I do 4:24 is the presence of spirits 4:26 you know there's this 4:30 for me it's about being young 4:32 like to have this young 4:34 person who saw things 4:36 that were bigger than herself 4:38 you know like having that sort of cognitive 4:40 understanding that I'm tiny 4:43 and then there are these things that are 4:45 sort of bigger and more powerful 4:47 and you know 4:49 and they protect children because that's 4:51 my relationship with the spirit world 4:53 right 4:54 and of landscapes 4:57 right I remember 4:59 I have a very good visual 5:01 memory of 5:03 places and spaces 5:05 and I didn't always 5:07 it's not always linear 5:09 Of course, that's memory. It's not always sensical, but it's real. 5:16 And I love that. I love that I have shards of remembering what the school, the little school, you know, that I went to or the middle school that I went to, the church where I had my communion and the marché where we used to go, you know, go food shopping. 5:36 y 5:38 la place 5:40 donde se había 5:40 un saludo 5:40 en la tarde 5:41 me ha 5:43 estos 5:44 muy 5:44 tangible 5:44 muy 5:45 rich 5:46 bits 5:47 que 5:48 me 5:48 recalco 5:49 Gina 5:50 ¿Cuándo 5:51 se internalizó 5:52 que se 5:52 se 6:06 de donde g麗, donde la gente, que creó en la alcaldía cruzada, 6:13 donde acá va a casa, o un hotel, o un hotel de la casa, 6:18 y luego el hotel no era tan tarde. 6:22 Entonces, la presencia de la elite, de la más blana, 6:26 de la más blanca, del más blanco, hay racial, 6:31 y incluso de las escuelas de los chinas, 6:33 donde estaban desde donde estamos, literalmente, 6:36 Y luego, mi madre es Syrian, de la herida de la herida. 6:43 Así que, Lebanese, Syrian, Levant, como se dice, Middle East. 6:51 Así que, yo, me hechaba a la distancia de la manera que la gente hablaba de quiénes eran. 6:58 Moi, Neg 7:00 y luego 7:07 y era muy muy claro 7:08 y luego 7:09 que lived 7:09 en las grandes 7:10 que viviendo 7:10 que viviendo 7:11 y luego 7:12 que viviendo 7:12 y luego 7:12 que viviendo 7:12 las cosas 7:13 así que 7:15 no solo 7:15 did I 7:16 entend 7:16 la Black 7:18 y 7:18 estudiando 7:19 cómo comprens 7:20 lo que 7:20 también 7:20 sabía 7:21 que 7:21 era 7:21 que 7:22 lo que 7:22 era 7:23 que 7:23 la 7:23 lengua 7:24 a 7:24 que 7:25 la 7:26 la 7:27 Fue la razón, es la facta que los que los que eran ligeros y comportaban en un particular tipo de manera, 7:38 que había las cosas niceres, que vivían ahí y que owned los stores down la ville. 7:45 Entonces, hay una manera de la idea de la race como un tiedo a la money y met algo diferente. 7:55 and an understanding of that 7:58 because it's not like we didn't have lighter skin 8:00 friends because the family we did 8:02 and within the family there were people who are lighter 8:04 but it's the 8:05 distinction or that discernment 8:08 between light 8:09 we thought a whole lot of money 8:11 right 8:12 so the color and capital 8:16 connection was very clear 8:18 to me 8:18 but not necessarily 8:22 in a 8:24 as negative a way 8:26 in part because 8:28 I'm in an all black country 8:30 right so I think 8:33 the stigmatization 8:35 that I 8:37 began to understand 8:39 through blackness in the US 8:41 context is different because 8:43 that's where being black 8:45 in a predominantly white country 8:47 meant something else 8:48 right 8:49 so does that help 8:52 Does that make sense? 8:54 Sure, sure. 8:54 So what's the difference that you encounter yourself as a Black person in the U.S.? 9:01 Well, the difference was I wasn't just Black, but I was Haitian, right? 9:04 So those earlier years back in the late 70s, it was migrated in 78, so the 80s, because 9:13 part of that moment too, the 4 H's, what was going on around the narratives around Haitians 9:19 are the ones where one of the people carrying the AIDS virus. 9:24 And, you know, so many of us have stories about being bullied as Haitians because of our accents. 9:31 And sometimes, a lot of the times, oftentimes it came from other Black students, right? 9:37 African-American kids and even other Caribbean kids. 9:40 Because to be Haitian was, you know, I think Junot Diaz, you know, captures it really well in Drown. 9:47 It's a slur. It's a four letter word. Right. So that sense of being othered in a very particular way as a Haitian person was was something I grew up with once we migrated. 10:02 And it was particularly jarring because I was Black in Haiti and it wasn't a problem, right? 10:14 It was like, I'm not discounting the class component, but you weren't seen as like you don't belong here, which is the sense that was clearer in the U.S. context, right? 10:26 that you're not, you know, you're here, you're not, you don't belong here because it's not 10:32 your world. 10:32 And then people are fighting to belong as black people amongst themselves. 10:37 Históricamente, la migración haitiana se concentraba en ciudades como Miami, Nueva 10:41 York, París, en Francia. 10:44 Sabemos que va creciendo la población haitiana en México actualmente y otros países latinoamericanos. 10:50 ¿Dónde están las personas haitianas hoy día? 10:52 What are the Haitian people today, Gina? 10:54 Bueno, you know, I mean, I think what's really fascinating is people have been going in other places. 11:03 Like, I mean, we also, there was always a presence in Boston, right? 11:07 I'm thinking about some of those key places, Chicago. 11:09 That's where my father went back in the 70s. 11:14 Chicago has a huge Haitian presence. 11:16 And then you can, you know, even tie it back to what the fact that Chicago was founded historically by a Haitian person. 11:24 Y también en Atlanta. 11:27 Hay Hayes en Atlanta. 11:29 We know that. 11:31 Y, de acuerdo, 11:32 we know about 11:33 la TPS, 11:34 la gente que están 11:35 en Springfield 11:36 en Ohio. 11:37 So, 11:38 I think 11:38 the migration 11:41 patterns 11:42 are changing 11:43 and shifting 11:44 and people 11:45 are finding 11:45 themselves 11:46 in places 11:47 where 11:47 there isn't 11:48 usually 11:50 community 11:50 or they didn't 11:51 have community 11:52 but a new 11:52 community 11:53 of migrants 11:54 es formando. 11:55 Y así 11:56 we're 11:58 more 11:59 about this. 12:01 I think we're 12:02 and I'm finding out 12:04 just very recently 12:05 a little bit of presence 12:08 of us in California. 12:11 It's not 12:12 the same numbers. 12:13 New York and Miami 12:15 is always going to win 12:16 when it comes to the numbers. 12:17 Boston and Chicago. 12:19 But there is 12:20 a presence 12:21 and it's a notable one. 12:24 Y a lot of the times it makes itself seen through cultural expression and so forth, right? 12:31 But we're here. 12:33 We're here. 12:35 I'm talking about cultural expression and other forms of expression. 12:39 Having the desire to be a singer, a rock star, what led you to cultural anthropology? 12:48 ¿Qué te llevó a la antropología? 12:50 You know, I love to tell that story because I think, for me, it's important to be, you know, first of all, to kind of face your ambition and face your desires and face yourself. 13:06 And I'm in awe of the fact that at such a young age, I felt like I had something to say. 13:12 Ahora, como este 13:16 older person, yo go, 13:18 ¿qué es? ¿Qué es lo que yo? 13:20 ¿Qué es lo que yo? 13:21 Es que es como que 13:22 que te sentí que te sentí que te sentí que 13:25 te quería un montón de personas a escuchar. 13:27 Es un poco balloso. 13:31 Y 13:31 I'm learning 13:33 y I've learned 13:35 to love that part de mí 13:37 que felt 13:39 the sense that 13:40 y tus personas que son performers 13:44 es usualmente 13:45 una cosa que decimos 13:47 en la mano, tienes que algo 13:49 para compartirlo con la vida 13:50 no solo con los 2 seres 13:53 con los 2 seres 13:53 que teniendo 13:56 como el video 13:58 pero es muy bueno 13:59 pero, pero yo lo amo 14:01 que pero aprendí a aprender 14:02 que realmente me guste 14:03 y lo y es porque partidso para m porque es exactamente lo que me ha llevado a la 14:34 Y, ¿qué es lo que hace? 15:04 You know what I mean? 15:05 We're so similar. 15:06 It's like, oh, okay, so you do this. 15:09 But really, when we check that away, here's what you all have in common. 15:13 And so for me, really, really, really, really, really, that is the thing. 15:20 That's the thing. 15:21 That was the same impulse to wanting to sing and thinking that if I belted out a Pat Benatar 15:29 y pretendía que era Billie Holiday, 15:32 yo hubiera conectado. 15:35 Así que la cosa con la anthropología, 15:37 estudiando Marquette Women en Jamaica, 15:40 estudiando lo que está sucediendo en Haiti, 15:43 entender lo que está sucediendo en las mujeres en Belize, 15:45 entender lo que está sucediendo en las comunidades de las mujeres, 15:49 o lo que está sucediendo en South Africa. 15:51 Es como, oh, my God. 15:53 Hay estas cosas en la historia. 15:56 Y es como si entiendes estos externos factores, 16:00 tú realmente puedes ver los humanos. 16:03 Así que es lo que ha siempre ha driven me. 16:06 Wow, eso es wonderful. 16:09 Cuando te unpeel estos layers. 16:13 Yo estaba preguntando sobre tu memoria de Haiti. 16:16 Tu mencionas tu madre, tu madre, tu madre, etc. 16:20 ¿Cómo has tu ancestros 16:23 contributed 16:23 to and inspired 16:26 your multidisciplinaria 16:27 feminist work? 16:30 There's no me without them. 16:33 There's no... 16:36 It's also the thing 16:37 that makes me really fierce. 16:41 Do you know what I mean? 16:44 I can be 16:46 stubborn 16:48 and 16:51 to the extent 16:53 that I will 16:55 like fully embrace 16:58 that it doesn't have to be something negative 17:00 always 17:01 or at all 17:03 it is 17:06 I have 17:08 profound respect for anybody 17:09 who's come before me 17:11 growing up 17:14 the way I did 17:15 oh my god I'm about to get emotional 17:17 y seeing 17:20 especially when you start 17:23 having that understanding of things 17:25 as social and political 17:27 and geopolitical 17:28 and then you see what people have 17:30 endured 17:31 right 17:34 personally 17:35 interpersonally 17:39 nationally 17:41 internationally 17:43 so I'm like I do not 17:46 take anything for granted. 17:51 You know what I mean? 17:52 I don't take anything for granted because I'm 17:54 too aware that 17:56 the life I'm 17:59 living, what I'm able to do, my mother 18:01 could not do. 18:03 What my mother could do, my grandmother could not 18:05 do. And we can 18:07 sort of like keep going back 18:09 and I'm currently working on a project 18:11 for the Dakar Biennale 18:13 and one of the things that 18:15 happened, we had a snafu at a moment 18:17 and I said, oh, it's okay. 18:19 I said, during the middle passage 18:21 we didn't get a do-over. 18:26 And that's a profound 18:27 thing to say and to recognize 18:29 and to allow to be how 18:31 you behave in the world, right? 18:33 Which is, during the middle passage 18:35 it was, we were going 18:37 straight through, we were being taken 18:39 straight through. They didn't stop 18:41 and said, would you like 18:43 something else? Right? 18:45 So for me, when I look at elders, when I look at family members, when I look at people who endured in their time, right, in their moment, given what opportunity they had or did not have, given the decisions that they made. 19:04 Y, of course, I'm in a position where I make completely different decisions even, or maybe, or maybe not. 19:10 I'm hyper aware of the fact that they lived, as women especially, and some of them as men too, my uncles, my father, people in my life, my cousins. 19:25 It's humbling to recognize and to accept I'm in a different position. 19:32 Right 19:34 So who am I 19:36 And when you hear people talk about 19:39 I stand on the shoulder of giants 19:41 Like you know I am 19:42 I am a progeny 19:45 Of those who came before me 19:47 You know so 19:48 You know I like that line 19:51 From Sadia Hartman where she says 19:52 I am a progeny of captives 19:54 From lose your mother 19:57 I am a vestige of the dead 19:59 I do not take any of that lightly 20:02 And that's what makes me fierce 20:05 That's what gives me sort of like 20:08 The extra force that I have to withstand a lot 20:12 To fight the fight that I need to fight 20:16 Or to just fly and be happy when I need to be happy 20:19 Because I'm hyper aware that I'm living in a moment 20:22 With opportunities, with possibility 20:26 That others did not have 20:28 That's wonderful 20:30 And also the aesthetics 20:32 In your feminist praxis 20:35 You said 20:36 Stem from 20:37 And I'm quoting 20:38 From an organic approach 20:40 To ressembler 20:41 A gated of ideas 20:43 Things 20:43 People 20:44 Spirits 20:44 That is full 20:45 By ancestral liberation 20:47 And love imperatives 20:48 What do those 20:50 Recycled ethnographic materials 20:52 That you present 20:53 In your installations 20:54 Tell you 20:55 They tell us 20:56 To appreciate 20:57 the natural world 20:58 again 21:00 I'm very nerdy about 21:02 I believe nature is bigger 21:05 you know like 21:09 as humans we are just mere 21:11 little mortals like 21:12 we're nothing we're little 21:15 grains of sand and I'm perfectly 21:17 comfortable and happy 21:19 being a little grain of sand 21:21 and so 21:23 the thing about using 21:24 these natural materials 21:27 en el trabajo, es 21:29 para honor 21:30 them, 21:31 es para 21:32 highlight 21:34 them, 21:35 es 21:36 para 21:37 keep 21:40 light 21:40 on 21:40 them 21:41 y 21:41 let 21:44 other 21:44 people 21:45 see 21:45 them, 21:45 show 21:45 other 21:46 people 21:46 this 21:46 is 21:46 how 21:46 I 21:47 see 21:47 them, 21:47 right? 21:48 And 21:49 then 21:49 the 21:49 ethnographic, 21:50 some 21:50 of 21:51 the 21:51 materials 21:51 are 21:51 also 21:52 words. 21:53 So 21:53 I 21:53 love 21:54 to 21:55 recycle 21:56 y esto tiene que ver con la academia 22:01 en general, pero 22:02 recicla la narrativa 22:05 hay un piece que he estado trabajando 22:07 por un tiempo 22:08 hashtag Black Liberation 22:11 mashup 22:12 y lo que es es 22:13 que usan quotes y quotas 22:16 excerpts de todos estos 22:18 de los writers 22:19 de los 19th century a la present 22:21 porque creo que hay un montón 22:23 que estamos diciendo ahora 22:25 que hemos sido antes 22:26 y no necesito usar nuevo lenguaje 22:29 para decirlo, solo 22:30 y lo reconoce lo que ha sido dicho 22:32 y representa, remuele 22:34 si lo que se ha hecho 22:35 220 años 22:36 después del Revolución 22:38 ¿Qué haces sobre la Caribe? 22:42 Y también 22:42 que vivas en Estados Unidos 22:45 ¿Cómo se ha manejado 22:47 estas catástrofes y demonizaciones 22:50 sobre Haití? 22:51 ¿Y qué? 23:21 the news by the former president and his vice president, right? And one of the ways that I talk 23:31 about Haiti, you know, I ended up writing a book called Why Haiti Needs New Narratives, which was 23:36 based on my own response to these dehumanized narratives and racist and cruel and that 23:46 essentially reduced Haitians 23:48 to their conditions. 23:51 And there's 23:52 a point in there where I say, you know, 23:54 without disaster, 23:56 without political instability, there's 23:58 no Haiti story. Without crisis, there's 24:00 no Haiti story. And it's true, because 24:02 the only time Haiti appears in the news 24:04 and the U.S. context where 24:06 I do live, which is 24:08 why it matters to me that it is about 24:10 the U.S. context, is when there's 24:12 a crisis. And for me, 24:14 Part of what that means is that our identity is only in negation. 24:21 Right. 24:22 We're always having to prove this is not true. 24:26 As opposed to having an affirmed presence. 24:30 You know, so that what, you know, did you know, you know, what kind of games people play in Haiti? 24:37 And, you know, because while all of this is happening, people are still living. 24:42 Do we know what that looks like? 24:44 ¿Qué es lo que yo me refiero? 25:14 I think parts of the Caribbean don't know what to do about Haiti, 25:20 don't want to become another Haiti, right? 25:23 Because there's another narrative too, 25:26 when you're thinking about Guadalupe and Martinique as French protectorates, 25:30 because the Haiti example is when you try to be sovereign. 25:36 This is what happens. 25:38 En breve, regresamos con negras y continuaremos dialogando sobre Haití 25:42 con la profesora Gina Athena Ulyssi. 25:45 Sigue en sintonía con Radio Universidad de Puerto Rico. 26:02 Está escuchando el podcast de Negras. 26:05 Este programa se emite los viernes a las 3 de la tarde 26:08 por Radio Universidad de Puerto Rico en el 89.7 FM San Juan y el 88.3 FM Mayagüez. 26:17 Todo mundo de música e información. 26:19 Usted está escuchando Negras, inspiradas en las grandezas de nuestras ancestras. 26:39 Les saluda Bárbara Abadía Resach. En la quinta parte de la serie, Tomando el Pulso a 220 años de la Revolución Haitiana, conversamos con la profesora Gina, Tina Yulisi. 26:51 En medio de la situación actual de Haití, Gina, ¿cuál es la esperanza? 26:55 Amy, the current situation in Haiti, what is the hope, even for the people outside Haiti? 27:01 Bueno, la manera, y he's been saying this for a muy long tiempo, 27:10 cuando hay un breath, hay un promise. 27:15 Mi sensación de entender quién somos como especie, 27:22 quién somos como un grupo, como un grupo, 27:26 y yo creo que la mayor 27:30 la gran historia 27:32 de la vida 27:34 y la resistencia 27:36 cada breath 27:38 siempre fue siempre 27:38 la promesa 27:39 no todos resisten 27:42 la misma manera 27:43 no todos los que 27:44 para mí 27:46 es una de las 27:47 hyper contextualized 27:49 que tenemos 27:50 que tenemos que reconocer 27:52 que hay gente 27:53 en la frontlines 27:54 y hay 27:55 que están enfrentando los paramilitarios 27:59 que están arrastando diferentes partes del país 28:02 ahora. 28:04 También hay gente que 28:06 sus vidas son en peligro. 28:09 Yo me acuerdo con una conversación con una colega 28:11 que hablaba sobre lo que era para las mujeres que no pudieran ir a ir a la hora y que no hab que dar a casa Lo que hab pasado en la pandemia about what it was like for women who were pregnant who could not go out after hours and had to give birth at home What was happening to 28:23 people's social lives because again 28:25 of the 28:27 fear and real 28:29 danger of being outside after 28:31 a certain time. People kind of run 28:33 home if they were out. 28:35 If they could get out 28:36 by a certain 28:39 time before the sun came down. 28:41 I think of what's happening to younger people who are not able to go to school. 28:47 I have a lot of people I know who work in education and they talk about how the school, the calendar year gets completely, you know, eroded. 29:00 porque cuando hay 29:03 todo este paramilitario 29:05 actividad 29:07 la gente 29:08 no es capaz de mantener 29:10 la escuela de la escuela 29:11 ¿qué pasa con la escuela de la escuela? 29:15 ¿Qué pasa con la escuela de la escuela? 29:15 En la U.S. 29:17 We just went through something 29:18 con COVID que causó 29:20 la gran disruption 29:21 ¿qué pasa con la gente que hay 29:24 que hay gente que hay que vivir 29:25 con estas disruptiones 29:26 en una forma o otra 29:27 por la vida 29:28 of their lives. And yet 29:30 still, they show up, 29:33 they're here, they're still alive. 29:35 Some of them have been 29:36 sort of sucked into 29:38 the 29:40 worst part of this because they're 29:42 recruited to become 29:44 food soldiers because 29:46 kidnapping is employment 29:48 and terror has 29:50 its own value, right? 29:52 So, you know, I think 29:54 because I've always been, you know, sort of like 29:56 interested in issues of representation 29:57 y el symbolism 30:00 de todo esto 30:01 y no es decir que 30:03 no estoy paying attention 30:05 a la real life aspect de it 30:06 pero es importante que nos recognize both 30:09 so I think 30:11 que es uno de los reasons 30:12 que insist que every breath es a promise 30:14 as long as somebody es breathing 30:16 hay still hope 30:16 porque people are confronting 30:19 so many different variations 30:20 de horror 30:21 y entonces hay gente 30:22 que woke up y saw 30:25 the beauty in a flower today 30:26 I know that 30:27 Otherwise 30:29 We wouldn't be able to keep going 30:32 Right who heard a song 30:34 And brought a little smile to their face 30:36 Who called a friend 30:39 Who bought somebody else 30:41 Something to eat 30:41 Like to me that's hope 30:44 Right as long as we keep 30:47 Those little bits of our humanity 30:49 Intact 30:51 We do what we can 30:53 To preserve it 30:54 porque es lo que está en suerte 30:56 es lo que está 30:58 lo que está siendo 30:58 destruyendo, es lo que está siendo 31:01 obliterado y entonces 31:03 cuando digo esto, no puedo 31:05 no pensar en lo que está sucediendo 31:07 en Gaza, no puedo 31:08 no pensar en lo que está sucediendo 31:10 mi favorita es Suheir Ahmad 31:12 y he escuchado a ella 31:14 por un día 31:15 so, you know, just thinking 31:17 about when we're pushed 31:19 to the brink of our 31:21 humanity, do we become more 31:23 human or do we become beasts 31:25 and 31:27 I'm for the humanity part 31:29 you know what I mean I want to hold on to that 31:33 part how do you keep Haiti 31:35 alive in your work 31:36 for the people that doesn't know about Haiti 31:39 in the US 31:40 well I mean I think 31:42 Haiti is always there 31:45 and 31:46 it comes through our songs 31:49 it comes through the materials I use 31:51 It comes through 31:53 Some of the research I've done 31:56 The current project that I'm working on 31:58 That I mentioned about the biennale 32:01 For example for Dakar 32:02 I was doing and did research 32:05 Around the indemnity payment 32:07 That Haiti paid France after the revolution 32:09 And even when Haiti is not explicitly present 32:14 I had somebody say to me 32:15 Wait until you get to the Haitian part 32:17 I was like whoa what the hell do you mean 32:18 I thought all of this was Haiti 32:21 Even if I'm singing like I'm pretending to be 32:23 Billy Idol being Billie Holiday 32:25 I'm talking about Haiti 32:27 So I don't have that 32:29 Sense that it needs 32:32 To be a voodoo chant for it 32:34 To be Haitian 32:34 That's narrowing what 32:37 Haiti is as far as I'm concerned 32:40 Because for me 32:41 What Haiti has taught me 32:44 Is how 32:45 To understand 32:47 things in a so much more nuanced 32:51 than historical 32:52 and long-due 32:55 historical way, right? 32:57 To not take things 32:59 at face value, to recognize 33:01 the deep impact 33:03 that historical 33:05 factors are going to have 33:07 and are they always visible? 33:09 To appreciate 33:11 how 33:14 a people's 33:16 sort of expression 33:17 comes through 33:18 whether it's food 33:19 whether it's chant 33:20 whether it's cloth 33:22 you know 33:24 so 33:25 when you hear me 33:28 and then I play 33:29 with those 33:29 voodoo chants a lot 33:31 and the thing 33:32 that I've been doing 33:33 now is 33:33 I will sample 33:34 like Rihanna 33:35 I have fun 33:39 I'll sample Rihanna 33:41 with a voodoo chant 33:42 and it works 33:43 I know what I'm doing. And again, part of my personal interest is in Haiti has been historically relegated to this sort of exceptional world, right? 34:00 Haiti is like this little thing in the Caribbean that's had all these problems. 34:05 And I always go back to one of my favorite quotes from the late anthropologist Michel Rortreau, where he said, the more that Haiti appears weird, the easier it is to forget that it is the longest neocolonial experiment in the West. 34:22 Y, you know, so I'm always repeating that quote 34:26 To tell people that this narrative of exceptionalism 34:31 That you keep associating with Haiti 34:33 Has more to do with that fact, right? 34:36 That it fought for and gained its independence in 1804 34:41 And I'm not saying that to romanticize 1804 34:44 Because there's also that tendency 34:46 Which I think is also problematic 34:48 Because no one then is talking about 34:50 Well, what happened in the aftermath? 34:51 Especially internally, right? 34:55 Just thinking about the investments that different fractions within Haitian populace had around who should and should not be landowners, who should and should have power, who's going to be taxed and who's not going to be taxed, right? 35:11 Which then has maintained this huge class divide that has the color connotations, etc. 35:19 So I'm interested in Haiti as symbol for, as a universal. 35:26 I use Haiti as a universal. 35:28 I think it's a good way to actually understand and play with it, 35:34 the material as a performer, as an artist in general. 35:39 Okay, okay. 35:41 And also part of the title of one of your performances is 35:44 What If Haiti Were a Woman? 35:45 y sus titulos de los trabajos que le han escrito 35:49 ¿Cómo edifican las obras de antropología y such 35:52 o más en la vida de la vida? 35:55 ¿Cómo comenzó con la obra de una buena mujer? 35:58 Reflecte notificaciones en la vida de la que se hace. 36:01 ¿Cómo se evitó una mujer en la vida en la vida? 36:04 ¿Cómo se evitó una mujer en la vida de la arte de la vida? 36:08 ¿Cómo se evitó una mujer en la vida? 36:10 ¿Cómo se evitó una mujer en mi trabajo? 36:13 I don't know if I ever thought about it like that 36:16 Thank you for putting it that way 36:18 Because that's something that's asking me 36:22 To think about 36:26 What my intentions are, were 36:30 And 36:33 Yeah, so that's enough to say it that way 36:38 How do I not vindicate women? 36:42 I think for me, I have a profound understanding of gender inequity and inequality as a scholar who studied and understands that, right? 36:56 Because that was one of the fields and areas of my research for my dissertation. 37:02 So I studied and had a lot of things understanding just within the world that we live in, what happens to women. 37:12 And then you add class, you add color, you add region to it. 37:18 Y entonces, siendo una mujer en Estados Unidos, 37:22 y así, que tener un entorno de la experiencia 37:26 y entender, 37:28 ha dado un insight en la manera 37:34 que el trabajo que hago 37:36 en un en algún sentido 37:39 es un defensa. 37:43 Pero, al mismo tiempo, 37:45 What I think I do, in my writing I tend to do this a lot. 37:51 And I remember many, many years ago a student said to me, 37:55 I was teaching this course on rereading gendered agency, 38:03 Black women's experiences of slavery. 38:05 I stopped teaching it because it really took a weight and a toll on me. 38:10 Teaching it year after year after year. 38:12 y estos jóvenes que no tienen el background 38:14 para entender el historia 38:16 y un día uno de ellos me dijo 38:18 ¿por qué es todo este material 38:20 tan defensivo? 38:23 y yo me dijo 38:24 y yo dije 38:25 y yo dije 38:28 y yo me dijo 38:30 que se ve que 38:32 porque si conoces la historia 38:35 de la historia de la humanidad 38:37 de la historia 38:37 que la parte de la emergencia 38:40 was to refute all these negative stereotypes about Black women. 38:44 So that's why that work is defensive. 38:46 And the sense that you have that we no longer need to defend 38:50 is saying something about how you're experiencing the world 38:53 that they made for you to be able to say that, right? 38:56 Because it's all part of your benefiting from that work. 38:59 And now you want sort of like more affirmative presence 39:02 and engagement. 39:03 So that was, it's moments like that 39:08 That makes me then go, ah. 39:13 And I also, because of the kind of therapy that I do for myself, 39:17 which taught me, again, about the need to not always be on the defense. 39:27 What would happen if your identity stemmed from within, right? 39:32 So that's part of the point that I made earlier about we only exist in negation. 39:36 We're always having to say we are not this 39:39 We are not that 39:40 What would it be if you had 39:43 An identity that was not in 39:45 Opposition to anything 39:46 That's what drives what I do 39:49 But in order 39:51 For me to get to that point 39:52 I started out in a more defensive mode 39:55 Right 39:56 I started out refuting 39:57 I don't refute anymore 40:00 I just say here it is 40:02 This is what it is 40:03 And I think the line from 40:05 There's two lines from the Audre Lorde line from, if I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies and I would be eaten alive, right? 40:19 Which is such a profound and important quote from a black woman. 40:23 And it's true. 40:24 It's like everybody has an idea of who you are and who you should be. 40:27 I mean, we're living through it right now, right? 40:29 With what's happening politically in this country. 40:31 And people who are angry at you, not even knowing why they're angry at you. 40:34 They don't even know why they're taking it out on you. 40:35 You know what I mean? 40:37 They don't even know. 40:39 And then you just look like, okay. 40:41 And then I end that piece with the line from Walt Whitman, of all people, great poet, Walt Whitman, white man. 40:50 And he said, I exist as I am and that is enough. 40:53 And I love saying that line when I end that poem. 40:56 And I go, I exist as I am and that is enough. 41:02 we're not having a fight here, I'm done 41:06 you know what I mean 41:09 if you have a problem with this you can go and deal with it elsewhere 41:11 it's not going to go down like that 41:14 because I exist as I am and that is enough 41:17 that's it 41:18 and I think it is something that we 41:24 need more of 41:27 that sense of an internal sense of self 41:30 que se expresa outward 41:33 a opposed a 41:35 que no se sabe 41:38 y otherness 41:39 creo que Haitian 41:41 women artists 41:42 whether 41:43 en film 41:44 y visual arts 41:46 y performance 41:47 y han sido 41:49 haciendo 41:50 que trabaje 41:51 donde pueden 41:51 es difícil 41:53 para algunos 41:54 en algunos 41:55 en Haití 41:56 I mean 41:57 I've been 41:57 working 41:57 with 41:58 you know 41:59 talking to different people and the dance community, the kind of work that they're doing, 42:05 and have managed to sort of eke out and make a space to do creative work, even under duress. 42:14 Yeah. 42:16 That's wonderful. Thank you for, this is like a lecture. 42:20 Thank you thank you Gina And also Unequitable Human Assertion was a multimedia installation performance project performance que present en la Biennale de Sidney en 2020 cuatro a atr 42:32 You seek a more just world 42:34 y por el mundo 42:36 que ha sido hablando de cómo 42:38 seek a more just world 42:40 y en un muy human. 42:41 ¿Qué te celebras sobre tu trabajo, Zina? 42:45 Bueno, 42:46 dos cosas. 42:48 Lo que es lo que 42:49 es lo que más profundo con el horror 42:51 and I love how much fun I have when I'm doing it 42:53 I love that 42:56 you know what I mean and I go there 42:59 I go there because we need to go there 43:01 I go there 43:03 because we need to face it 43:07 we need to sit with it 43:09 because that's the only way you go through stuff 43:11 we know that 43:11 but now like I said I have fun 43:14 and I have fun in part 43:18 because I think it's 43:20 cuando 43:23 we know the history of what happens 43:25 to us 43:26 as minoritized folks 43:28 to our health 43:29 we know what it can do when you hold 43:33 on to things right 43:34 so this sort of 43:37 letting go that I'm speaking about 43:39 my ability 43:41 to do it and my 43:42 the fun that I have in doing it 43:44 and I'll tell you something that I thought 43:46 years ago my mother 43:48 was there in the audience 43:51 and was watching me perform 43:53 and every time I think about this it's very 43:55 profound for me and I watched 43:57 my mother like 43:58 there was this little gleam in her eye 44:01 that I was being such a little 44:03 you know 44:04 I was like you know and it's something 44:07 that women of her generation didn't get 44:09 to do right that 44:11 I could sort of push back and 44:13 be so cheeky and 44:14 you know tell everybody to fuck off 44:17 y disfrutando de esto. 44:19 Y al mismo tiempo, 44:20 estoy diciendo que el mundo es injusto 44:21 y necesita ser más justo. 44:23 Y no voy a dejar de ser un rebelo 44:25 hasta que se haga el mundo just. 44:27 All of us, 44:28 no todos los, 44:29 pero todos los que nos necesitan 44:29 que se engañe con eso 44:30 si queremos que, 44:31 porque podemos hacer que lo que. 44:32 Porque creo que en eso, 44:34 lo que yo celebrate es 44:36 que acepta la gente 44:37 donde están. 44:39 Y si escuchas a mí, 44:41 si llegas a mi presentación, 44:43 a mi trabajo, 44:44 y sabes que quiero 44:45 que nos queremos ser en la comunidad 44:46 y quiero cambiar la vida 45:16 So. Yes, I celebrate that you celebrate that. Thank you that you have that opportunity that that's that's amazing. 45:27 Gina, can you share with us any of the pieces you like to perform, scene, recite? 45:32 You know, well, I'm going to look for something short. 45:38 Let me see. 45:40 I, well, I'm going to, yeah, it can be, I'm going to read you the, I'm going to do the first part of Black Liberation mashup. 45:56 Okay. 45:57 This one. 45:57 Neither blood nor belonging 46:13 accounted for our presence. 46:16 I closed my eyes in strain 46:19 to hear the groans and cries 46:20 that echoed in the dungeon, 46:22 but this face was newt. 46:24 I am a reminder that 12 million crossed the Atlantic Ocean 46:30 And the past is not yet over 46:33 I am the progeny of captives 46:36 I am a vestige of the dead 46:39 And history is how the secular world attends to the dead 46:43 Not only humans made the crossing 46:46 Traveling in one direction 46:51 Through ocean given the name Atlantic 46:56 Grief traveled as well 46:59 The dead do not like to be forgotten 47:03 The dead do not like to be forgotten 47:08 Especially those whose lives had come to a violent end 47:12 And had been stacked ten high in a sea of mass graves 47:18 So I'm going to stop there 47:31 Because this is a series 47:33 Of pieces 47:35 That pulls together 47:38 A sort of 47:40 Rassemblage of 47:42 Quotes from 47:44 And what you heard me after the chant 47:47 es Sadia Hartman's Lose Your Mother 47:49 y M. Jaggi Alexander's 47:52 book Pedagogies of Crossing 47:53 y el trabajo es 47:55 esencial 47:56 es un excerpt 47:58 y el trabajo es 47:59 Antoinette 48:01 Phillips, C.L.R. James 48:04 Soraniel Hurston, James Baldwin 48:06 Toni Morrison, Audre Lorde, Suzanne Cezale 48:09 Toni Cade Bambara, Gwendolyn Brooks 48:10 y un montón de otros 48:12 y un montón de personas 48:17 a narrative 48:17 y también 48:19 está 48:20 y 48:20 está 48:20 earlier 48:22 y 48:22 la 48:23 marxismo 48:24 cedric 48:24 robinson 48:25 y 48:26 la 48:26 introducción 48:27 de 48:27 la 48:27 genocide 48:28 y 48:28 la 48:30 colonial 48:31 encounter 48:32 y 48:32 a 48:32 y 48:32 la 48:32 revolución 48:34 through 48:34 revolution 48:35 y 48:46 y continúa a evolucionar 48:48 y algún día, algún punto, 48:50 voy a poder hacer el... 48:52 Pero yo uso ahora como un preamble. 48:54 Cuando hago un performance 48:56 en algún lugar, 48:57 voy a hacer algunos de estos 48:58 porque lo hará 48:59 lo que se ha hecho 49:00 lo que el otro 49:02 que voy a hacer 49:05 porque mi trabajo, 49:07 como dije antes, 49:08 es siempre dibujo de la pasto. 49:11 Gracias por compartir. 49:13 Eso fue increíble 49:14 escuchando. 49:15 Gracias. 49:16 Y que es un trabajo de un trabajo en esa resumen, en San Blas, en español. 49:24 Y poner todos estos partos juntos. 49:27 Wow. 49:29 Gina, 220 años después de la revolución del Haitian, 49:34 ¿qué invitaron a tus compatriotas en y fuera de Haiti y a nuestra comunidad internacionales? 49:40 ¿Qué es lo que hacía la audiencia a hacer? 50:10 No. 50:13 Being in solidarity with Haitians, 50:15 I think, 50:16 I know we wouldn't be where we are right now 50:18 without solidarity, 50:20 both inside and outside of Haiti. 50:23 I think supporting Haitians, 50:27 supporting the Haitian cause, 50:30 if you will, 50:30 it's all of our causes. 50:31 I think being in conversation 50:33 with people, 50:36 not just in these moments, 50:38 but continuously. 50:39 So the relationship and the interactions are not just based on crises and trauma. 50:45 I think that's really instrumental in terms of how we forge and make our relationships as we continue to live in this world in this moment. 50:54 Right. So that we actually build connections and relationships and not just when there's something wrong, when something is awry. 51:04 Sí, sí, porque lo que yo, una de las cosas que yo he sido crítica de es la tendencia, 51:14 especialmente en la parte de la comunidad internacional, es como, ¿cómo puedo ayudar? 51:18 ¿Cómo puedo ayudar? 51:19 Que modelo de charity, que modelo de charity y saving, 51:24 donde eres el savior que comes in y lo ha hecho, no es equitable. 51:29 Whereas 51:31 It is a relationship 51:33 So I'm noticing 51:35 As I've been making my rounds 51:37 In different places and doing what I do 51:39 Who do I stay in touch with and what does that mean 51:42 What kind of relationship is that 51:43 Is that going to be 51:45 One based only on hierarchy 51:48 Or could it be something else 51:49 And I 51:51 Go back to what we were talking about earlier 51:54 About the anthropology 51:55 About peeling off the layers 51:57 que, ultimately, 51:58 tenemos más en común 52:00 que no. 52:01 Y si eso es el caso, 52:03 ¿qué es lo que conoce? 52:04 ¿Qué es lo que conoce? 52:06 Y, you know, 52:06 tengo amigos que son, 52:07 ¿qué le damos? 52:08 Y yo le damos, 52:09 y yo le damos. 52:10 Y luego hay otros amigos 52:11 que son, 52:12 ¿qué le damos, 52:13 ¿qué le damos? 52:13 Y yo, 52:14 ¿qué le damos a seguir 52:15 en este persona? 52:16 ¿Y esto? 52:17 Entonces, 52:18 no es como cuando hay 52:19 una crisis, 52:20 porque esta persona 52:20 no siempre post 52:21 solo sobre la crisis. 52:23 En la vida, 52:24 ¿qué es lo que? 52:25 It's the dailiness of these interactions in these relationships is what I think is what's going to save us as a species. 52:35 Gina, en negras procuramos soñar. What are you dreaming about? 52:41 What am I dreaming about? Being happier. 52:45 I mean, right now 52:50 I'm having a good moment 52:52 Professionally, personally 52:53 Because it's all coming together 52:56 After many, many years 52:58 Of things being kind of like 53:00 Desperate 53:01 And I'm still dreaming 53:04 Of a better world 53:05 These are crazy 53:07 Rough times 53:09 And I think 53:11 Again, back to what I said earlier 53:13 cuando yo estaba teaching 53:15 last year 53:16 I end my classes 53:19 every class 53:20 and I've been doing this 53:21 for some time 53:21 and I go be in community 53:22 and stay human 53:24 I dream about 53:27 that 53:29 being in community 53:31 and staying human 53:32 one of my colleagues 53:34 Evan Bissell 53:35 has a project 53:37 with his family 53:39 around another world exists 53:41 rather than another world 53:42 is possible 53:43 It already exists. We just have to keep doing what we, you know what I mean? We just have to do that work. And I love the idea and the practice of that, what it means to contribute to a more just world so that it's not something so far away that it has to be a dream. 54:03 So I think all the time, am I enacting something that brings a little bit of peace today? 54:11 Because there's a lot of things we don't do anymore, like social things, right? 54:16 One good thing for yourself and one good thing for the planet. 54:20 So then I'm no longer going out there trying to change the world, right? 54:25 I'm trying to change the world right next to me. 54:28 el persona que 54:30 me walk outside y I see 54:32 y I'm trying to decide 54:34 am I going to give them money or not 54:36 you know like when I confront these things 54:38 like how do I handle these 54:40 very real moments 54:42 where my sense of humanity 54:44 is being questioned 54:45 and am I going to be upset 54:48 that I didn't do it or am I going to be annoyed 54:50 that I did do it 54:51 and I've been known 54:54 I've done the random coffee thing 54:56 I do the hello 54:58 whether I get one or not 54:59 and just trying to be 55:02 the best form of a human 55:04 as I can be 55:06 just like my daily 55:08 minute moment 55:10 and that is part of my 55:12 profound happiness now 55:14 it really really is because it's like 55:16 when I look at the horror 55:18 and then the people who are brave 55:22 for living through it 55:24 and I see what I do have 55:26 and don't have 55:27 y estoy agradecida. 55:29 Y así que intento ser el mejor humano que puedo ser. 55:33 Gracias, Gina. 55:34 Ha sido un placer escucharte a ti 55:37 y tener esta conversación con ti. 55:39 Muchas gracias. 55:40 Gracias, gracias, gracias. 55:42 Gracias, gracias. 55:43 Mucho apreciado. 55:44 Como siempre, agradecemos al personal técnico de Radio Universidad 55:48 por su apoyo en esta edición de Negras. 55:51 No olviden sintonizar Negras el próximo viernes a las 3 de la tarde. 55:55 Feliz viernes a todos. 55:57 Cadena Radio Universidad de Puerto Rico y Colectivo Ilé presentaron Negras, asumiendo nuestro justo rol como forjadoras de cambio. 56:07 Las expresiones que compartieron nuestras invitadas no representan necesariamente la opinión de Negras ni del Colectivo Ilé. 56:17 Acaba de escuchar el podcast de Negras. 56:20 Le invitamos a que nos sintonice los viernes a las 3 de la tarde por Radio Universidad de Puerto Rico en el 89.7 FM San Juan y el 88.3 FM Mayagüez. 56:33 Todo un mundo de música e información.
